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From:  John Alexander Blyth <BLYTHE@B...>
John Alexander Blyth <BLYTHE@B...>
Date:  Thu Oct 26, 2000  9:28 pm
Subject:  Re: [vocalist-temporary] Re: Diction: German r's and how to treat/teach them


Item by item I respond to this truly interesting missive:

At 08:00 AM 10/26/00 -0700, you wrote:
>--- John Alexander Blyth <BLYTHE@B...> wrote:
>--- John Alexander Blyth <BLYTHE@B...> wrote:
>> Dre,
>> I wonder if the soft rolling 'r' can be a little
>> related to the soft Dutch
>> 'g'> though who knows? john (?)
>
>Dear John and co vocalisters,
>
>I think there is no relation between them, because the
>Dutch 'g' is produced at the farthest end of the soft
>palatum. As a matter of fact I had to learn how to
>pronunciate the Dutch 'g', because my mothertongue is

This is instructive - I used to speak French in such a way that French
people though I was Belgian, and I wonder if this is due to the French 'r'
sound which I made way back near (or at?) the uvula. I wonder if this is an
odd tie that binds Fleming and Walloon?

>a German dialect, the dialect of Aix-La-Chapelle
>(Aachen) and in the beginning I had big difficulties
>with the Dutch 'g'. In general: in big parts of
>Germany people make an end-'r' that indeed is followed
>by a schwa, bu that is still very much different from
>the Englsh 'r'. (When speaking German I do that as
>well.)If you use such an 'r' while singing you produce
>a very ugly sound, that probably will spoil the next
>word.

And one should recall that even English 'r' varies a great deal in
different speech-regions (Sprachraeume). I'm from the east central part of
Scotland which has a very pronounced kind of rolled 'r', unlike anything
the singer of English song or (prob. Britten) opera is likely to utilize.

>If you compare more modern singers with Lotte Lehmann
>e.g., there is a tendency now to sing a bit more
>natural, and Lieder pronunciation is closer to spoken
>language than opera. But all of this is also related
>to the distance between the audience and the singer.

This is also true regarding the English language, though with very strong
counter currents: the American and British standards have been evolving on
their own, but there is also the kind of period recital in which (for
example) Joan Morris attempts not just the repertoire but the style of late
19th Century America. There are also attempts to do Shakespeare as he might
have pronounced his verse, but in general people can't accept anything less
than 'refined' and 'elevated' for the great poet who, like Blake, would
have been perfectly happy to rhyme 'eye' with 'symmetry', which would both
have ended with a sound rather like the German 'ei' in 'mein' (which I
don't like either, preferring to separate the dipthong into its components
in singing). Attempts to sing Byrd's sacred music in 16th century English
Latin pronunciation have likewise not gone down well.

>Then there is the effect of the 'plop-filter' when
>making recordings, that might filter out the rolling
>aspect of the r. In general, nowadays, if you
>pronunciate an r too clearly, it could be
>interpretated as agressive, or at least as giving
>extra emphasise to a word, especially when this word
>has already been used a few seconds before. (cfg. das
>Wandern: 'Das Wasser, das Wasser, das Wasser, das
>Wasser'!)

I don't know what a 'plop-filter' is. I personally would have a very gentle
'r' on 'Das Wasser, das Wasser, das Wasser, das Wasser' so as not to
broaden the final 'e' too much - it is an unstressed syllable, after all. I
might almost say that I don't care what real Germans do, since most real
Germans speak unlovely dialects. The two Germans whom I'm closest two in my
life are from gentle backgrounds in Kiel and Potsdam and speak in a rather
elegant manner which I am glad to emulate. On the other hand F-D and Goerne
both seem to be aus Berlin and much as I (hugely) admire them, I don't want
to say "Traenen" in such a way as it sounds like "Trennen". I just dont!

>I think in general the old rules are all still valid,
>but you should modify them a little in the direction
>of spoken language. There has been an even stronger
>shift of singer's pronunciation in the case of the
>'w', which is not produced as a 'v' (as it should
>i.m.o.) by DFD for example and other singers. Then

I've noticed that from my Potsdam connection - might it be a local
peculiarity of the Berlin area, or a class thing? I've never been there, or
I would listen closely. There may be an element of English influence. Oddly
enough there are English speakers who pronounce their English 'v' as
English "w", which has been associated with a portion of the upper class
(the legendary 'upper class twit' of Monty Python fame); and Russians and
other Slavs often confuse these when speaking English.

>there is the 'ä', which pronounced as the 'a' in
>'maid' by people from the Rheinland and by others as
>the 'a' in 'man', but slightly longer. The latter is
>correct, but almost all Dutch singers (except for
>Robert Holl and me, of course;) use the Rheinland
>version. (Even worse, in cases where also Rheinländer
>produce the a correct, they will still use the a as in
>maid.(without the i of course).

"man" isn't the best English word to illustrate this, since its
pronunciation varies considerably, according to region, all the way from
'ah' to 'eh'. I too wish to avoid the standard, but on aesthetic grounds
only, as I illustrated above (Traenen/Trennen).

>I still think listening to Wunderlich is the best way
>to learn how to do it. A nice book is 'Die Kunst des
>Sprechens', also called 'der kleine Hey'. I'll look up
>the publisher when I'm at home.

The voice teacher who is directing and coaching our opera excerpts gets a
sort of awestruck look in her eyes when Wunderlich is mentioned. Maybe
pronunciation is part of it? :o) john
>
>Best greetings,
>
>Dre
>
>__________________________________________________
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John Blyth
Baritono robusto e lirico
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

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